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Old 09-03-08, 08:35 PM
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Default What is worse than getting your theology from The Shack

It has got to be getting your theology from Dr. Seuss. However this "church" is doing just that. And I quote:
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Lessons are most often learned when our imagination is engaged. Probably no one understood this better or had a more profound effect on generations of children than Dr. Seuss. Many of the more than 40 books he wrote have incredibly deep spiritual parallels. In this series we will rediscover four classic Dr. Seuss stories and learn the practical Biblical truths found in them.


Whatever happened with the great truths of the Bible.
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Old 09-04-08, 12:03 AM
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Hmmm... Apparently that was for a childrens church. And while I have to give them points for being creative, I don't think that when children are at church learning to trust and believe in God you should confuse them by reading Dr. Seuss and telling them that there are messages about God in them. (Regardless of whether there are or not.)
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Old 09-04-08, 12:33 AM
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My noggn has had about all the theologgins that it can take after listening about 2/3 of the first presentation especially the Zuchini however after all that intro there does seem to be basic Bible truth taught and taught directly from the Bible. Since this was adult church but doing a parallel to children's church w/ the apparent intent to help the adults relate to sharing spiritual truths with the children in their lives perhaps it has its value. I could live a long time w/ out it but the Lord uses different things in different contexts to get us into His word. Don't know what their regular diet is tho the speaker seems to have an "o wozie" style. If they do learn the basics of God's faithfulness and human frailty even frailty of Bible heros and the redemptive work of God then somnething has been accomplished.
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And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. ... Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. Matthew 25:40 & 45

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Old 09-04-08, 02:35 PM
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I have read Dr. Seuss since I was 9 years old I believe..or close to it..
When they first came out anyhow..
My mom bought the whole set of books as they came out for my little sister..

I do have a little problem with using them for "spirituality" ..
I want my children and grandchildren to learn "Christianity" not spirituality..

We can use any learning tool out there but the main thing is to put Christ into the teaching ..do not let it end with just teaching them "spirituality" ...
there is a Scripture I think of when I think of leaving them without the focus being on Christ..

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

It is good to see Him in other venues than Scripture..I see Him in the heavens why not in other peoples books..
But I will not confuse a book about Jesus ways with the true words of Jesus..

Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:15 And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.

In the end of the instruction has Jesus Himself touched them, do they see Him...??? or a cartoon or a "spirituality" ????

That is what I care about....
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Psa 36:7 How excellent is thy lovingkindness, O God! therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings.
Psa 36:8 They shall be abundantly satisfied with the fatness of thy house; and thou shalt make them drink of the river of thy pleasures.
Psa 36:9 For with thee is the fountain of life: in thy light shall we see light.

Psa 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.

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Old 09-04-08, 03:09 PM
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One thing re: this particular set of teaching is that while they said it was paralleled in the children's church this was the main teaching to an adult congregation.
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1Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. ... Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. Matthew 25:40 & 45

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Old 09-04-08, 03:23 PM
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This is for adults??
no kidding??
I did not see anything in the page that came up that suggested it was an adult teaching..


right now I need a smilie with tape over it's mouth..
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Psa 36:7 How excellent is thy lovingkindness, O God! therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings.
Psa 36:8 They shall be abundantly satisfied with the fatness of thy house; and thou shalt make them drink of the river of thy pleasures.
Psa 36:9 For with thee is the fountain of life: in thy light shall we see light.

Psa 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.

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Old 09-04-08, 03:44 PM
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1Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. ... Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. Matthew 25:40 & 45

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Old 09-14-08, 05:14 PM
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How about The Gospel According to Peanuts?

"From the Publisher: In this unique, engaging book Robert Short examines the insights to be found in the comic strip Peanuts and makes an expanded comment on these wonderfully imaginative parables of our times. Highlighting his remarks with selected cartoons, Short looks at the antics of Charlie Brown, Snoopy, Lucy, Linus, et al. from a Christian perspective, revealing a surprisingly prophetic meaning behind their otherwise hilarious activities. While these lovable cartoon characters have enjoyed an almost unparalleled popularity--becoming pop culture icons of the highest order and entering the global consciousness practically as family members--Short's book also has found a place in the hearts of many readers. Whether coming to the book for the first time or taking a second look, a delightful experience awaits in this modern-day guide to the Christian faith, fully illustrated with Peanuts." from the book blurb
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Old 09-15-08, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Disney View Post
It has got to be getting your theology from Dr. Seuss. However this "church" is doing just that. And I quote:


Whatever happened with the great truths of the Bible.
The truth is useless if you don't know how much God loves you. There is no one that God does not love with all that He is. His love reaches beyond every sin and failure, hoping that at some moment they will come to know just how loved they are. If we don't get this part right, we're not going to understand the rest of scripture.

I saw a man this weekend standing on the corner of a busy highway. He had a sign that said, "Preacher Needs Job to Help Family Survive. NOW!" He was wearing a huge wooden cross around his neck, as though saying "I've picked up my cross and I'm following Jesus...but I'm not making it and my family is at risk, so God's people had better come through for us." Can you imagine the thoughts that run through that preacher's mind? He had a plywood board on which he'd taped some pictures of his family and pieces of cardboard on which were written scriptures about mercy. Here is a man of God begging for a job. How does that look to the nonbelievers who pass by and wonder who this God is who won't take care of His own servants. Why put our trust in someone like that? Where is God's love evidenced and how is God glorified by that man standing on a corner begging for a job? Some religious people might think that he's begging because of sin in his life; some pity him for being so misguided to think that someone's going to drive by and say, "Hey, I need a preacher. Let me hire this guy." Can you see where the preacher's mind is? He's thinking survival. He's trying to help God by laying out a fleece when God is just asking him to trust Him. I don't know if the guy quit his regular job or got laid off. I don't know his circumstances, but I know the doubts and the fears this preacher has.

The church has taught us to seek God's favor by living a holy life, as though it is in our power to live a holy life. It is not the fear of losing God’s favor that takes us to the depth of fellowship with Him and transforms our lives with his holiness. It is our certainty of knowing his unrelenting love for us, even in the midst of our weakness and failure, that lead us to the fullness of His life.

That's what I learned from reading The Shack. I've read it more than three times. From my own personal experience I've come to better understand God's love and His Word after reading this book. It's not that The Shack is holy, but the theology is absolutely right on. Before the coming of Jesus, God used fear to hold our passions in check, but it never made anyone holy. In Christ, God wanted to win our affection with his own. Thus he needs our fear no longer, knowing we will never love that which we fear. This is where organized religion so often gets it backward, and why so many people in the pews remain so distant from God and so unchanged in their character. We think conforming to God’s ways will lead us closer to Him, when the opposite is true. If we focus on our own fears and performance, he will seem more distant. It is only by living in the security of God’s affection that he is able to transform us. John, who knew Jesus better than any of His followers, said that 'perfect love drives out fear'. Romans 8:15 says, "For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you receive the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”

If obedience had been God’s only issue, don’t you think he would have made the whole scenario far clearer? He told Adam and Eve not to eat from the Tree of Knowlege of Good and Evil or they would die. He didn’t describe that death in detail. He could have told them how it would destroy his creation by bringing sin, disease, and relational brokenness into his world. It would cause them incredible pain, and not just for them, but for all their offspring for thousands of years to come. He could have told them that all they needed to do was eat first of the Tree of Life, so that they would be eternally innocent in his presence.

Too many people see the cross only as an act of divine justice. To satisfy the need for justice, God imposed the ultimate punishment on His Son, thus satisfying God's wrath and allowing us to go unpunished. That might sound like good news to religious people, but what does that say about God? Would a loving Father punish the innocent for the sins of the guilty? Would you want that kind of Father? His wrath wasn’t an expression of the punishment sin deserves; it was the antidote for sin and shame. The purpose of the cross, as Paul wrote of it, was for God to make His Son to become sin itself so that He could condemn sin in the likeness of human flesh and purge it from the race. His plan was not just to provide a way to forgive sin, but to destroy it so that we might live free.

This is the theology of The Shack. If it's error, then it's no more error than what the Church is teaching today.
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Old 09-15-08, 04:02 PM
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But Larry what do you do with verses like these
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Psalm 5:5, The boastful shall not stand before your eyes;
you hate all evildoers.

Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous,
but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence.

Lev. 20:23, And you shall not walk in the customs of the nation that I am driving out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I detested them.

Prov. 6:16-19, 16 There are six things that the Lord hates,
seven that are an abomination to him:17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
and hands that shed innocent blood,18 a heart that devises wicked plans,
feet that make haste to run to evil,19 a false witness who breathes out lies,
and one who sows discord among brothers.


Hosea 9:15, Every evil of theirs is in Gilgal; there I began to hate them.
Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of my house.
I will love them no more; all their princes are rebels.
And even if you take the verses following John 3:16 talks of evil doers

Quote:
16 “For God so loved the world, [9] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”
I am not sure I bye that God is only Love and noting else. And God's Truth will overcome anything.
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Old 09-15-08, 05:55 PM
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My problem with the pastor looking for work would be is this guy really a pastor or even a Christian or is he simply a street panhandler wth a new gimick? "Will work for food" is a common tin cup slogan in Atlanta and few actually are wanting work they are wanting hand outs. If work is offered there is generally a reason why they can't accept and often thise who verbally accept no show at the work place. If food is offered many will state plainly that they prefer cash. That is understandable when Creative Loafing and other media have done experiments that show that a will work for food sign can bring in as much as $300 a day in handouts. I am certainly not against people who need help...anyone who knows our ministry knows that; it is simply that we can not draw accurate conclusions from seeing people once in passing.

Moving more to the heart of the last 2 posts is it really an either or matter? Either the Bible or books about God or either love or judgment? It seems to me that there are times when books (maybe even Dr Seuss books or Peanuts cartoons) minister to us and help us understand the truth of God and more about who and how He is, yet of there were not the underlying Biblical basis these books might never have been framed nor can any book apart from the Bible tell us the whole of God. Too often we become like the 3 blind men who were allowed top see an elephant by touch. One grasped the tail and said ah now I know what an elephant is it is a rope, the 2nd told him man you are crazy an elephant is a huge solid wall, while the 3rd man shook his head wondering how one thought it was a rope and one a wall when he was holding an elephant in his hands and it clearly was hose. We each see particular aspects of God that are most meaningful to us and are a bit blinded to other aspects that are just as much a part of God.

Sin can not enter into the presence of God's holiness the sheer purity of Him will destroy it and whever may be living in it. Sin is so prevelent and so accepted in today's world that some people do need a shock treatment awakening. Yet it does no good to shock and condemn them and leave them there in condemnation. Like steel guitar strongs it just builds callouses and makes them less likely to make a sincere heart response when the true conviction of the Holy Spirit comes. They beciome like our friend D__ who has been "saved" so many times out of fear and condemnation and in all honesty out of drunken self pity that saying the right words and throwing himself on his kneesin the front of a church or revival tent sobbing is routine business to him, a small pause before getting a ride to the beer store. Quite possibly he means it every time but he has not truly seen God in it, not the greatness of His judgment nor the greatness of His love. Until he allows the Holy Spirit to make both real to him nothing eternally life changing is going to happen and each time he responds from fear and fakes it he becomes a bit more calloused to the truth. My heart breaks for him and I pray always that the Holy Spirit who specializes in raising the spiritually and physically dead and can convict with a percision that makes our strongest efforts seem like a dandilion seed puff will bring D___ to a saving reality in Christ.
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And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. ... Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. Matthew 25:40 & 45

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Old 09-16-08, 02:31 PM
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Hey Don,

I apologize for not being able to communicate my meaning better.

First of all, the scripture references range from historical events, to specific words from God to specific circumstances, to the Church's interpretation of what scriptures mean. We can not take scripture and apply it in broad strokes across all circumstances. For example, the Bible says that we are to kill witches. They did that a few hundred years ago, but today who really believes it is God's will that we should burn witches at the stake? Or that we should stone women caught in adultery or put to death homosexuals because it is an abomination in God's eyes? Paul wrote that women should remain silent in church and should not be in leadership positions; but believers today recognize the importance of women in ministry. At what point did we decide which scriptures we would abide by and which ones we would ignore? This isn't the place to getting into the old covenant/new covenant discussion, so I'm going to quit here.

What I really want to concentrate on is this notion that we can achieve some state of holiness simply by eliminating sins and the root of sin in our lives. If it is within our power to refrain from sinning; if we can subtract sin until the only thing left is holiness; then we’ve emptied the cross of its power. We cannot live lives of holiness; and if we’re trying to based on following scriptures – whether they be Old Testament or even New Testament – then we’re rejecting grace and are living under the Law. When we try to follow the teachings of the Bible in order to appease God, then we’ve missed the Gospel. If our freedom to trust God hinges on our ability to get everything right, then we’re back to trusting ourselves.

Paul wrote in Galatians 2:20, “I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.” Most translations read, “The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God.’ Notice the difference. Paul doesn’t have faith in the Son of God, but lives by the faith of the Son of God. Jesus, living in us, makes us holy - not reading the Bible, not going to church, or paying our tithes, or following the Commandments, or by denying ourselves. We don’t enter into God’s Kingdom by saying a sinner’s prayer, going forward at a religious gathering, or reciting an orthodox creed, but by learning to trust who He is and by living in that trust no matter what life hurls at us.

Religion is man’s way of keeping score, of striving for acceptance through our own performance whether it be in our good works or our rituals. Religion offers the illusion of earning acceptance. Without God, we are powerless against sin. Sin is it’s own punishment. Grace doesn’t stop the damage sin does to us, but it does help us say ‘no’ to ungodliness and worldly passions (Titus 2:12). Righteousness doesn’t produce relationship; relationship produces righteousness.

Christians are good at feeling guilty and repenting. What we're not good at is believing that we're worth Jesus' sacrifice. The Father thought we were. He watched His Son beaten, spat upon, cursed, crucified, and stabbed to death, because He and the Son together decided to defeat sin so we could be children of God and brother and sisters to Christ.

If we want to live holy lives, we're not going to do it by following scriptures; we're going to do it by getting closer to Jesus. We're going to have to hang out with Him, let Him take us where He wants us to go, and in the process we're not going to want to sin. Just as a happily married man is not attracted to pornography, a believer who hangs out with Jesus doesn't have time or interest in things of the world. That's what it means to be in the world but not of it. If we're really in love with Jesus, the Commandments become a non-issue.
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Old 09-16-08, 02:54 PM
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Sin can not enter into the presence of God's holiness the sheer purity of Him will destroy it and whever may be living in it. Sin is so prevelent and so accepted in today's world that some people do need a shock treatment awakening.
I hear you Ann. I'd just like to look at our understanding of God's holiness a bit. When Adam and Eve sinned, scripture doesn't present God as being one who cannot be around sin. He showed up in the Garden just like He always did. Their nakedness didn't offend Him. He didn't seem outraged or cover His eyes or keep them at arm's length so their sin wouldn't rub off on Him. He made them coverings of fig leaves and told them what they had done wrong. What Adam and Eve desired wasn't wrong - to be like God; but the way they went about it was wrong. When Satan was able to question whether God really loved them or was He hiding something from them, their faith wavered and sin snuck into their lives.

Let's look at Jesus. Scripture tells us that Jesus is fully God. Could Jesus, if He were truly God, touch sinful people; get their dirt on Him? Not if He was too holy to be in the presence of Sin. Scripture says that there was no sin in Him, so there was no sin in Jesus' body that would have made it possible for Him to walk among us.

God is not afraid of sin. He hates what sin does to His children. The Church teaches us that God could not look on while Jesus was being crucified because He was becoming sin. The truth is, before we were created, the Father and the Son had already decided that they would pay the price for our sins themselves. The Father was right there beside Jesus on the cross; even when Jesus couldn't sense His presence. Something happened on that cross because Jesus did finally sense God's presence and attention. When Jesus said, "It is finished. Father, into Your hands I commend My Spirit." He was talking to the Father. He knew the full burden of sin had been paid for by His suffering and imminent death.

Together, Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit are constantly in the presence of sin as long as they are active in this world; sin simply can't touch them or change them to be something they are not. That is their desire for each of us - that we be transformed, by the renewing of our minds, so that we know just how much we are loved and valued.
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Old 09-16-08, 06:17 PM
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Larry I did not say God was afraid of sin. If you think I did please reread. What I said was that sin can't stand to be around God and is destroyed by His holiness. Huge difference. You mentioned Adam and Eve. That is an exact illustration of what I am talking about. Genesis 3:8 "And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. " God did not hide from them, He came looking for them. There is no indication that they had ever hidden from God before but once sin came they feared to be in God's presence and fellowship with Him. Their man made solutions - fig leaves- didn't get it and God offered a better (albeit temporary) way. God still offers a better way (not temporary) today This way is the Jesus Christ. Seems to me we pretty much agree on this. Is that correct?

Over the generations since Papa Adam humans in general have lost sensitivity to sin and to God's holiness and the incompatibility of the two. Those who do remember have too often turned to fig leaves of religion rather than to the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ. This is the sense in which I said that sometimes (not always sometimes) the Holy Spirit knows a wake up shock may be needed. A large "denomination" based not far from here is headed by a man who says he preaches Christ yet admits to sexually abusing minors of both genders and says God will judge and punish anyone who says he has done wrong. We dealt with people broken by his work for more than 30 years. Why God has not stopped him in his tracks is either a testimony to God’s mercy or to the ineffectiveness of my prayers. He has had ample space and time to repent and has not chosen to do so. Many so called great leaders have ministered in churches that are under his authority, embraced him and called him honored brother. Where is discernment? Where is righteousness? Yet is this all so different from the mainline deacon who sits smugly in his pew on Sunday morning a little out of it perhaps from being up late watching the adult channels? And how much different is that from the pillar of the community across the aisle or in another church who charges $210 a week for the trailers where the floors fall in and a brave exterminator would fear to go and specializes in being one of the few in town who accepts rent subsidies or turns away from knowing that the largest drug dealer in the area rents from him? Or from the church that calls them both brother and tells them that they are right with God?

Of course God loves them. But they take that for granted not seeing that they are abusing His love and not knowing that much as He loves them there will come a time when His spirit will no longer reach out to them and the consequences of rejecting His love and sacrifice for them will be terribly eternally.

The man with the trailers happens to be a fellow that we know well though of course there are many others like him. He was in church, at singings, in every special meeting, known as a pretty good giver and certainly a steady member of his church. Time went on and he hired a lady as his assistant and rent collector mainly because she could speak at least some of the language of his tenants but "wasn't one of those people" (his words not mine.) Not long passed and he realized that God in His love had given him much more than a competent employee He gave him someone who would look him in the eye and tell him the truth whether or not he liked it. He didn't like it, not at all. He fought it hard but the Lord did not back off nor allow this lady to compromise what she was telling him and he knew that she spoke out of God's love not out of criticism. It was not instant but he changed. We did see this one going by from the outside but everything I've written here is something he has testified. His words are "I thought I was a pretty good fellow, God ought to be proud to have me on His side. I found out I was a sinner and what it meant and I didn't like it not one bit. I thought God ought to change the rules for me. But He did something better. He changed me."

When sin and God collide something is going to be destroyed and it will not be God. The sad thing is that some humans cling to their sin and are destroyed with it.
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1Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. ... Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. Matthew 25:40 & 45

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Old 09-17-08, 02:36 PM
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No Ann, I didn't think you were suggesting that God is afraid of anything; just continuing down the same line of thought that I'd started before.

John wrote that 'The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom'. But fear is just the beginning. Love is the full revelation of God. If we're one of those believers who have a hard time understanding God's love, then we're only going to obey to the degree of our fear. Once we're no longer afraid, we'll continue to sin. And this is the point where hardness of heart comes into play. If we're not convicted, we think it's no big deal to God so why should it be to us?

John also wrote that we're perfected (made perfect) by love. Note that he didn't say we're perfected by obedience, but by God's love for us and our love in response to God. It is God who makes us perfect through our faith in Jesus Christ. We can't obey God under our own abilities and will.

As far as those people who profess a relationship with Christ but who mistreat His children - such as the landlord, I would question whether such a relationship really existed to start with. Jesus said that we're to love one another as we love God. Without love, good works are worthless to the one performing the good works.

It's interesting that Rick Warren just started a 40 Days of Love program at Saddleback Church. With the decline of the megachurch, the people who are nobodies now will be the somebodies of the future church. The nobodies will be the people who give themselves away. They will be like William P Young who's book for his children ends up touching thousands of lives with the love of Papa.
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