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  #31  
Old 02-25-09, 10:43 AM
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Am I understanding you correctly, Vinnie, in saying Open Theism believes God exists and considers Him to be roughly the same as the generally accepted Judeo Christian God concept except that it says God doesn't always know what's going on or is going to go on and does not control everything? Calvinism says God knows everything and has already decided everything. That would make what people say is free will irrelevant. Arminianism says free will is basic and anyone can choose to be saved by personally accepting Christ?

What I know I am not clear about is what Open Theism says about salvation. In the Open Theism viewpoint did Jesus who is called Christ come to earth, live without sin and die for the sins of all humans? If not would all that be considered incorrect or which parts? To an open theist is it necessary and appropriate to believe that one has sinned and can not fix it themself and therefore needs to personally receive Christ as Savior to benefit from His death on the cross?
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  #32  
Old 02-25-09, 10:58 AM
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Can it be possible that we genuinely have free will and even so God knows exactly what we're going to do? A parent may know exactly how their child will react in a situation, but I don't think that necessarily means that the child is devoid of free will. It's simply that the parent knows and has a very deep understanding of the child. Doesn't it make sense to apply the same ****ogy to God relative to us?

Why does 'free will' have to associate with 'unpredictable?'

(Don't take this as an indication necessarily of my own views, I'm looking to learn something and advance the discussion.)
I guess it would depend on how God knows. If it is because he knows the position, energy and momentum of every elementary particle in the universe and the laws that operate them and can "calculate" our future actions then no, we would not have free will. We would behaved in a strictly determined fashion. A parent also knows what a child will do a lot of the time and the older they get, the more difficult this becomes. Though God sees everything we would do even as we become more independent from our parents so he has a good indication of what we will choose in open theism. Just sometimes he is genuinely surprised by free will as our parents. Sometimes kids do the darndest things--and adults.

Though I suppose if God had extra time dimensions you could try to harmonize free will and knowing the future that way as well. Hugh Ross attempts this in Beyond the Cosmos. It all depends on how you see God and time. Is God outside time? Did He exist "before" time and create time (a temporal action). These lead to contradictory terminology. How could there be a "before" time when chronological descriptors are only meaningful in time?

I tend to think that no one can answer these questions accurately since the concepts are beyond us and our language breaks down. We are confined to a temporal, spatial world. Our perceptions of space and time change as well as we progress (now time is relative ala Einstein).

I find open theism one way to synthesize the data and it works well with free will in my humble opinion with our conception of reality and explains a few peculiar Biblical verses that are otherwise force-fitted to other preconceived notions. I'll try to post more later specifically on "free will" and God knowing what we will choose.

This is a great question! Though I am not sure we can answer it. I suppose the whole purpose of OVT is to preserve free will.

Vinnie
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  #33  
Old 02-25-09, 12:09 PM
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Again, I'm not pretending to have any answers, but I have a couple more ideas here.

The first is that although omniscience and omnipotence seem to be two separate concepts, it may be that they are so strongly related that they are inseparable. In this world, in very practical terms, there is a clear link between knowledge and power; and if you look at it more theoretically relative to God, then perhaps it suggests itself that God knowing everything that can be known, is impossible to separate from the concept of omnipotence.

As for the question of God and time, I find it useful to look at things generally in terms of mathematical sets. If we take one enormous mathematical set which includes absolutely everything, then it may be fair to call this 'God'. Within this set there could be a smaller subset which includes the universe (and hence time), but you could still say there are timeless properties of God which exist outside the universe, or indeed simply say that time doesn't extend across the entire original greatest set, while God does.

I guess it's a bit like a multi-dimensional idea; you're saying there is part of God that is parallel to or, better still, 'around' time; and you avoid having to wonder whether it is before or after time that we're talking about, which, as you say, is chronologically self-serving.

The set concept is the easiest way I have found of explaining Trinity, as you can have the Father, the Spirit, and Jesus as separate subsets linked in to an overall bigger set of 'God'; and so it is explained how they are all God, but still distinct.

But again, I've run off on a tangent...(I always end up doing that Vinnie, as you will come to realize if you hang around ).
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  #34  
Old 02-25-09, 12:25 PM
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I drew a picture using sets, which may help explain my ideas better. If anyone would like to see it, then could they suggest a good free image hoster?
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  #35  
Old 02-25-09, 04:29 PM
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Yep it is.
I'll third that vote!
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  #36  
Old 02-26-09, 01:25 PM
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Paulo, If it is an image that you can upload as a jpg file (or can take a picture of and then up load as jpg) then Tripod may be useful http://www.tripod.com
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  #37  
Old 02-26-09, 01:59 PM
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It was an image from a camera but I smashed my camera yesterday (not the best afternoon) so...
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  #38  
Old 02-26-09, 02:01 PM
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O Paulo sorry you had a day like that.
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1Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. ... Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. Matthew 25:40 & 45

www.caringhandsministries.com
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  #39  
Old 04-02-09, 12:36 PM
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This was a good discussion.
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  #40  
Old 04-02-09, 11:47 PM
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Amada lives
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  #41  
Old 04-04-09, 01:00 PM
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amada lives
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